ThunderStick Summit's Q&A Session

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The instructors around LASD Deputy Klindworth who attended on a scholarship in honor of the late Sheriff's Sergeant Danilo Castaneda.

The last weekend of September saw the fourth ThunderStick Summit out at the Staccato Vegas facility in Pahrump, NV. Thunderstick is a yearly three-day event focusing on the defensive use of shotguns.

Four years ago, several instructors who teach the shotgun began a conversation about hosting an event focused on defensive and duty use of shotguns. The first Summit was held at the Dallas Pistol Club in the fall of 2022.

Attendees in a block with Ellifritz working on a technique for clearing around cover while minimizing exposure.

Staff

This year’s staff included Darryl Bolke – American Fighting Revolver, Greg Ellifrit – Active Response Training, Steve Fisher – Sentinel Concepts, Mark Fricke – AFTT, Rob & Matt Haught – SymTac Consulting, and some guy named Erick from Cougar Mountain Solutions. Two new instructors were added this year: David Cagle – HITS and Zach Cox.

Additionally, several employees from Vang Comp Systems were there to support the attendees.

Surefire’s CJ Cowan and teammates are shooting Rolling Thunder in one of my blocks.

Q&A

From the beginning, the original presenters (Bolke, Fisher, the Haughts, myself, and Tom Givens) wanted to have an open question and answer for the attendees. It is the last event of the Summit, on Sunday afternoon.

A student in Fisher’s low-light block.

Best Shotgun For Duty Use?

This question pertained to either a pump-action or a semi-automatic design. All but two had a decided preference for the pump-action. They felt it was a more reliable design overall, one that worked through a wider variety of circumstances.

One instructor, who preferred semi-automatic designs, noted that less experienced shooters often induced malfunctions through their handling. Those kinds of malfunctions occurred much less often in semi-autos.

The final instructor who favored semi-autos looked at the issue from the perspective of familiarity. A pump-action gun is manually loaded, manually operated, and manually unloaded. “We” see far fewer shooters with pump-gun experience. As a result, they are much less comfortable with that kind of gun than they are with the functioning of a semi-automatic. A non-dedicated shooter who is already accustomed to their polymer-frame pistol or AR may have an easier time using an autoloading model.

How Was The Students’ Performance Level?

Across the board, it was safe. And the vast majority of manipulations became smoother and more consistent as the Summit progressed.

Regardless of the firearm, one can work on a tremendous amount of the necessary manipulations in dry practice. A couple of us saw participants getting out-running their headlights and then trying to manipulate their shotguns in ways that were not taught, along with being very inefficient. On occasion, that included combining parts of techniques without getting any benefits from them.

Again, damn near every participant was very safe, and they all improved over the weekend.

Retired California police sergeant and Gunsite operations manager Bill Jeans started many West Coast L/E shotgun instructors on their paths.

The Best Shotgun Optic?

Nearly all the well-known optics were discussed. Most of us have seen both solid performance and broken versions of the same make and model. While manufacturers have tested their optics for tens of thousands of cycles on handgun slides, this does not always translate to a shotgun’s recoil impulse. The group of us have seen and used optics from Aimpoint, Holosun, Steiner, Trijicon, and Vortex. Only Aimpoint and Vortex are making shotgun-specific optics.

Pair the ammunition with the gun – this particular gun and load are not a good match.

Personal Preferences for Defensive Ammo?

This question led to answers going in various directions. First, regardless of the intended role, it must be reliable and function properly every time when paired with the gun it is intended for. That is mentioned because I regularly come across loads that perform extremely well out of a pump-action; however, they are unreliable in semi-autos.

Second, there was discussion about the different needs between home defense loads and those used on duty. Law enforcement duty loads require a consistently tighter pattern out to a significant distance. In contrast, the distances inside one’s home do not mandate the same performance for anywhere near as far.

Several of us have recently noticed that loads with lengthy histories of exceptional performance are now having issues. The shot cups used in the Flite Control and Versa-Tite loads are quite similar. Examples of both indicate that there have been recent manufacturing changes. This year, Fisher and I have both seen unusual one- or two-pellet flyers from two 8-pellet loads using the shot cup descended from the Billings’ loads.

Another area is the concern about a flyer from 9 pellet loads versus the performance of 8 pellet versions. Briefly, when I started, we saw and used 3″ shells with 12 pellets loaded to magnum velocities. In the early 90s, Federal introduced the first reduced recoil 2 ¾” loads with 9 pellets. Since then, there has been a shift to 8 pellet offerings to minimize flyers.

Several of us had specific skill tests that the attendees could shoot before the Q&A session on Sunday.

Modifications

One modification that is not dependent on a specific load, which may or may not be available, is the one from Vang Comp Systems – an event sponsor. The combination of barrel work they do (back boring, adjusting the forcing cone angle, and porting) results in a significant improvement in patterns across the board.

Of note, the old “jug choking” method of reducing pattern size is a precursor to the Vang system.

The late Louis Awerbuck was one of several instructors who laid the foundation for what we are doing with shotguns today.

Sources For Foundational, Fundamental Material

There was a consensus recommendation for material from Louis Awerbuck of Gunsite & Yavapai Firearms Academy, Bill Jeans of Gunsite & Morrigan Consulting, and Scott Scotty of ITTS. Awerbuck’s books are still available. Panteo Productions has videos with Awerbuck and Jeans addressing the defensive shotgun. Reitz wrote extensively for SWAT Magazine. Clint Smith should also be included in this list.

Most recently, Chris Baker of LuckyGunner.com has been doing a solid job of getting good information recorded in video form.

Examples of the Federal Flite Control and Hornady Versa-Tite shot cups.

Scholarship

The featured photo shows LASD Deputy Klindworth with the instructors. His attendance was covered through a scholarship established by the instructors to honor Los Angeles Sheriff’s Sergeant Danilo Castaneda. Danilo had taken classes from several of the staff. He had been promoted to sergeant after several years of teaching at his department’s Tactics & Survival Section, shortly before he passed away from a sudden medical condition. You can nominate a deserving officer or deputy by reaching out to Vang Comp’s Cody Stewart via [email protected]

The staff established a scholarship in honor of the late Danilio Castaneda for a deserving officer or deputy.

Final Thought

Thunderstick provides the opportunity to train with several experienced instructors in a compressed timeframe at one location. There is gunsmith support on-site and several manufacturers (Aridus, Kick-Eez, The Wilderness, 5.11, & Mossberg) actively support the event and participants. It will return to Staccato-Vegas next fall.